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Bladder stuff
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de okie
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Bladder stuff Reply with quote

Bare with me...

Annie came to us with a bottle of SMZ for a bladder infection. No biggie, it happens. SMZ usually clears it right up. Meds all gone and it wasn't ANY better.

I catch the Vet that came with her up at the arena. He's a good ole' boy. I've known him for years, moble Vet. Keeps costs down for his clients. I ask him about this bladder infection. Come to find out this is the THIRD round of antibiotics with no improvement. He's got another mare doing the same thing Confused .

Well, my little mind starts asking myself these silly questions. Like... Humm, maybe we should culture this. Maybe a little ultra sounding.

My free horse is no longer considered a "free horse" Confused Laughing I knew it was too good to last anyway Wink

I took Annie to the little Vet that diagnosed Rose's eye. I really like this little feller. He left the area for a spell while continuing his education in diasnostics of something or another to become a specialist of some kind. I really like how he thinks, and he's here at my local horse hospital... And that kid is something!

First thing we got a clean culture, then he ultrasounded her and had me come back to see. It was confusing. The black/fluid was floating at the TOP of her bladder... Now that's just not right. Fluid floats around, not FLOATS to the top of your bladder. If that was the case, you'ed walk around dribbling urine like you had a bladder infection (if you were a horse).

He sits back. Proceeds to rattle off a fancy unpronouncable, dang sure can't spell it 3 worded name for this occourance. Okay Confused He took the cue and delved a little further.

At that fancy school he just got back from, they had a draft gelding named (like it matters, but the boy remembered the horses name Wink ) That had this condition. The bladder fills up with sediment. Eventually it gets so full with no space to spare, the bladder leaks the urine.

Sometimes it's related to a neurological injury, some are seeing a conection to EPM. He did tell me the draft didn't have EPM. They had to do that surgery we have done on male kitties that have cronic UTI, so that they could express the sediment from the horses bladder.

I'm thinking... There went my free horse.

So, long story short. If you know a horse with a bladder infection that won't clear up on the usual SMZ treatment.... In the short time I've had Annie, and never heard of this, I now know of the Draft, Annie, another- another moble Vet I know sent to the Hospital, and another possible one that is still being treated by the other moble Vet I know (I'm getting ahold of that one!).

We're going back Monday to ... Have her bladder "messaged" and rinsed again to get some more of that sediment out.... And nope, they told me sand clear just won't cut it for this particular problem Razz Wink

Go figure! Only ME... Well, not just me. That's why I want you all to get the heads up. Just incase.

lita
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de okie
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I got so busy rattling that I forgot to ask...

Has anybody noticed this in EPSM?
lita
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farmgirljen
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow- too bad they can't just pump it like a septic tank....and I agree- there went the darn free horse! can they put a bypass drain in it, like a catheter tube at the bottom, so the fluid can drain, an then maybe the smzs will work....coures your horse will be a pee sprinkler for awhile though... wow, Lita- that is quite the predicament..
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de okie
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're telling me, its a predicament alright Laughing

No need to put a cath towards the bottom, the sediment settles there and the urine floats over the top of it. Seems her bladder hasn't contracted to the degree to expell the sediment with the urine. So the sediment has accumilated, although we don't have any real time line on how long it took the sediment to reach this degree.

She's now a 9 year old mare. If there was an incident that caused the bladder to "fail", such as nueorological trauma or EPM, how long ago was it?

Now that we are clearing her out, how long before we have to do this again? I know she can void her bladder, I've seen it. Is she just not voiding it enough? There are medications to assist the bladder in contracting.

Best worst scenerio for us would be to take her in once a year for a "Teeth and twatt" appointment as maintenance Embarassed Well! Boys get the teeth and sheath Razz .

I am having her scoped around Tuesday to see if we have the bladder cleared out to my expectations, to look for any deformities and see the shape of the bladders lining. The sediment wasn't too course (yes I tinkered with some of it Rolling Eyes ) it didn't smush down to corn startch, but it wasn't abrasive under pressure.

More questions then answers at the moment.
lita
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prayerkat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh Lita.. sorry to hear of this.. I remembered all the stuff we went through with einstein way back when ... and sure did appreciate the college vet hospital back then... they were so curious... that they just wanted to find out as much as they could cause he was well a walking miracle....they had never seen anything like his case ever....... but just the same when its something liek the inside stuff like that you just wants KNOW what it is and what you can do... so the horse can get back to hopefully as normal a life as possible.

Hugs to you guys and thanks for keeping us posted on her progress.
PK
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de okie
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am such a curious creature... And curiosity can be an expensive thing.

So far the mares not too expensive of a horse. We got one more big ticket item to go to passify my curiosity. That scope I want done.

As it stands, most of this at my request and the glee of the Doc,

Dormaseden (he was willing to try without it, but took my word on it-I value the ones I like and by golly I really like this little Vet).
Exam
Urinalysis
Culture and sensitivity
Ultrasound
Lavaage bladder
SMZ (preventative purposes)

So far this mare has cost me $250 Shocked Shoot, I could have bought a healthy roping/barrel prospect, papered as well as she, without her little hang ups (I found out hauling her home she's not trailer broke, too) for that price! Or heck, if I would stand still long enough someone might give me one! Oh crud... Good thing Annie Oakie is keeping me so busy. I sure don't need another free horse Very Happy

I think we'll ride this one out, in more ways then one Wink .
lita
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CalifShire
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You did get off cheap! In small animal medicine, that exact same treatment list would have cost ya about 700-800 bucks( well, at least in a specialty hospital like the one I work at)...and that's just diagnostics...You still got to fix the problem..

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DUFFY
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well like her name sake Annie Okie if always keep you busy
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prayerkat
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep I like your vet too!
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de okie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are folks around here that would either call that pricey, or me lazy.

That bladder "lavaage" thing is something most mare owning folks would think I could have done myself (and one of the reasons Vet's see mares with scared urinary tracts). "Their" opinoin would be if'n I had flushed the bladder in the begining, any self respecting horse owner would have figured this out and wouldn't have had to pay for that ultrasound Rolling Eyes .

The biggest cost was the lab. Now folks, I worked for the lab. There's folks who would be saying I could have caught that urine and walked it to the lab myself Confused . I could have. But...

Well darn it, sometimes a gal just likes to have a knight in shining armor! Someone smarter then herself to tell her whats going on without having to figure it out herself. Cause honestly, I'd have never figured this one out Wink The cost has been well worth the education.

lita
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de okie
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterdays trip was interesting. I'm guessing the Doc had time to mull things over and had some questions of his own. That boys got a curious nature! He mentioned the EPM, the trauma and rushed in to assure me that although it was low on the list, that equine herpies may also be considered as a possible culprit. I asked him if EPSM could be considered. He didn't seem to think so.

Knowing what we know about Annies recent history (the being pulled over for her rearing, running backwards until her butt smashed the farriers truck door, the demolition of a few stalls at the old barn) he was wondering if she is or was suffering from neurological trauma. So here we go walking and trotting and watching her stand to see if there was anything to see...

Walking down and back. The mare definetly needs ground work to pass MY halter broke requirements, but nothing neurological in her way of going. Trotting, looked good. Moving out with her head elevated didn't show anything other then she has absolutely no Arab in her recent ancestory. While doing spirals, occassionally she would pivot on one hind but not consistantly. Now standing... Remeber me saying so long ago how we need to get her to disingage her hips?

She's not camped under herself like she was!!! Amazing how releasing the pressure in that bladder has relaxed that mare Very Happy

Ultra sound showed a much smaller bladder. Still had a good share of that sludge stuff. I was concered it was going to be a pain getting this stuff out. Yesterday he lifted the bladder to unsettle the sediment, which to me is the consistancy of... How do I describe this... You know when you are mudding a wall? How your bucket of water gets that sediment/sludge in the bottom? Yea, that's what it reminds me of! I'm not so sure that a few flushes is going to clear this out.

So, today we are going to do the scope. Check her out to see how things are looking in there and how much trauma we may be inflicting trying to cure her.

Farmgirljen, I mentioned your desire to have a septic sucking service come out and the staff thought that was cute... Until I added, that could eliminate the middle man... They thought about that for a minute and things got reallllll quiet Laughing

Keeping my fingers crossed we haven't done more damage then good!
lita
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Janet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wishing you the best of luck with that pretty mare Lita!
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de okie
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Janet and the rest who have sent up a silent word for this mere equine Very Happy

We are cautously optimistic. She can void her bladded on her own. The urine scald is MUCH improved. The sediment is all but gone!!! I couldn't believe it, I expected a good layer packed down in the lower reaches of the bladder. Not so, she's got some there but nothing like I was expecting.

Doc and I are thinking along the same lines. She may have suffered a truama to the sacariliac region (that bobbed tail may be leading us to consider that...). Those "S" vertibrae carry the nerves and stuff that help control the bladder. While the bladder wasn't functioning normally, sediment built up. By the time she had regenerated enough tone to express her bladder fully, the sediment was too far ahead of her to expell it....

She voided her bladder and sediment came out with the urine this time Very Happy

He's still not happy with her tail tone. Truth is, if I was at a sale and I took ahold of her tail, I'd swear she'd been drugged. She can lift it, and swish it. But there is no risistance when being handled...

The scope didn't show any abnormalities, it did show the inflamation from our irritating that area. And urine actually entered the scene while we were observing, which I thought was so cool! (okay so I'm easily amused Embarassed ).

Now we wait. We agreed upon a 2 week time line to see if she is able to keep the sediment cleared out... Unless I notice any signs of her filling up again.

Waiting, waiting, why do spend most of my life WAITING!? But I can't complain to bad. Most of the time I'm waiting for good news Wink
lita
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de okie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigh.

I've noticed her unrine has turned white. Horses don't have white urine. I'm afraid she pack ratting the sediment again.

lita
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jenni_grey
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it white-white or is it creamy butter-white?
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de okie
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed Sorry, that is confusing. It's clear white, like water from a spring.

Today she voided some regular looking stuff, but sediment ran down the back of her leg. I stopped by and gave the Vet a report. He's going to check on that bladder contracting meds, check out it's cost for me.

He mentioned (sort a to himself) maybe some bute. I'n thinking, he's thinking to reduce any inflamation that might be from a trauma....

Anways. Not looking forward to her double check appointment on the 2nd.
lita
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DUFFY
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my thought go with you on the 2nd I hope you get to the bottom of this
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magicholly
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your a good mom Lita. Good luck.
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de okie
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed Thanks Magicholly, but I'm too mad of a momma to be a good one at the moment.

I walked into the Vet office and announced from this day forward my mare would be known as BOB. Never again to be called (or billed as) "Annie".

I have been doing some digging and have found THREE previous owners who owned "Annie with the bladder infection" Shocked I am... Stunned? Confused? Pis... Pee-pee'd off. Each one put her on SMZ's. Not a one of them felt a culture, or flushing the mare was a consideration. Trainers fees and "fixing" her "behavioral problems" took priority Twisted Evil

I can't find the begining of this to get a time line, but I know her bladder has been stretched for so long that the prognosis is not good. It's doubtful that she'll regenerate any nerve endings or enough tone to fully empty her bladder now.

I was happy with the ultra sound today. Her bladder looked like a shook up snow globe, instead of the packed white ball with a tiny ball of urine floating on top. I started feeling perky... So she goes in for a routine flush (I'm afraid of damaging the urinay tract, doing the flushing myself) Then Doc explained that the probable outcome will be a leision in the bladder with constant irritation, urine... Twisted Evil

So there is nothing more I can do then wait. And change her name. Doc doesn't seem to think that'll fix what ails her. But he says if it does, he's going to use it Wink .

Bob. I knew she wasn't an Annie, she looked like a Bob from the first day I saw her.
lita
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Cielo Azure
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this helps and the doc certainly would have picked it up but I have a friend buy a horse at the Gordyville Auction once that ended up dying from kidney failure -after a week hosp stay and $$$$$ (she died two weeks after purchase date). The necropsy/lab work never turned up what drugs had been given to the horse but the staff at UC Davis were absolutely sure that her kidney's failed because she had been drugged (presumably for the auction).
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